Cheesecake art does bother women, but I doubt it actually stops them from playing. Awkward and shy teenage girls trying to play with awkward & shy teenage boys is a problem. And yes, there probably is a link between playing rpgs and feeling awkward. I don’t view that as a knock against the hobby anymore than the fact that awkward kids are also more likely to be attached to chess, or music, or other non-”Popular Kid” activities . It’s just a different way for them to live their lives.

At the age when they’re first “discovering” the other sex, kids heads can get messed up which I suspect makes gaming with the other sex more difficult. And if girls don’t pickup the hobby early, they may never learn it. I have two female friends who never felt welcome by local D&D groups when they were teenagers for those reasons.

But I’m quite positive that the pronouns used in the rulebooks has almost zero effect on whether women play. I’m not at all against balancing the pronouns, but blaming the pronouns for lack of female participation is just off-base. I have two reasons for thinking this. One, how do people actually start playing? Do most people walk down the aisles of a bookstore/gamestore, see a book on gaming, read it, and then decide to play? Nope. 95%+ have a friend introduce them to gaming. Most people have gone to several games and have decided whether they like it or not well before they’ve ever read a rulebook. Most players never read the rulebooks to any extent, so there’s just no way for the pronouns to have much effect.

I’d bet 90% plus of the “goth chicks” who played Vampire liked it and had already played before they ever read more that 4 paragraphs from the rulebook.

Secondly, all the WoTC games are careful about gender balance. That covers D&D, Vampire, Werewolf, etc. Between all their games you have a large percentage of the gaming market already balanced. And yet you don’t see any big new influx of female gamers.

Yeah, I’m asking. What’s right about tabletop gaming?

I suppose I’m touchy on the subject because it’s really rather tiresome to be constantly treated as if you don’t exist at all, or constantly told, you weren’t born with a penis, so you can’t play.

I happen to agree with you that a well-written game that’s written for a male target audience is still better than a poorly written but fairly-gendered one. I also agree that shifting the default gender pronoun from “he” to “she” doesn’t really do anything except create a reverse of the existing (gender-exclusive) situation. But I don’t see why you feel a 50/50 pronoun split or neutrally-gendered archetypes are such a horrible idea. Your post seems to largely rail against that suggestion, and you appear to defend your position by saying that not enough women are interested, so why bother? The message I, as a female gamer, take from that is, “You’re not worth the effort.”

So forgive me for being a little frustrated by that.
I will now dissolve back into nonexistence, like the unicorn that I am. Thanks for listening.

Maybe the reason women aren’t more interested in RPGs is because the authors have gone to such extensive lengths to exclude them.

How so? It’d be great if you could point out some examples. Most *systems* at least are gender-neutral, in that female and male characters have equal stats. You could play a female D&D elf with the same abilities as a male D&D elf.

There are also a number of games available aimed specifically at women.

As a result, the games and the hobby in general largely attracts only its target audience-men.

This doesn’t logically follow. Women play and watch football thought they even though it’s “target audience” is men. I agree there is a lot of “stigma” around gaming, but I’m not sure it’s because games have attempted to exclude women that’s the cause of it. I think, tbh, it’s the spotty teenager and geeky fandom that’s the cause more than anything else.

And then the next thing you know, stereotypes are forged about “geeks” and “losers” crouching in dank basements where no female has ever trod. Ever heard the phrase “self-fulfilling prophecy”?

I’m sorry as a man, I take offence at this. I’ve been gaming since a teenager. I am now married with kids. Why am I loser? I think the stereotypes you refer to came about, not from the explicit exclusion of women, but the trials and tribulations of adolescence. We nerds and geeks were shunned by the majority of female population. It’s just the way it was (and probably still is). I think *this* is the reason why you don’t find females crouching with the “losers” in dank basements. I think if those “losers” could get women into gaming, they would jump on it like a new Nintendo gaming console.

I’ve played in many groups that had women. Unfortunately it is very much male dominated hobby, but I would love to see more women in gaming.

Excluding women from games is foolish.

Yes it is. But I’m not convinced that game writers are at fault! Personally, as man, I do like games that cater for strong male *and* female characters. (I even play the occasionally female character.) And to be honest, I’ve yet to see a game that implicitly or otherwise excludes women characters or players. I’d, genuinely, love to hear some examples, because I’m in the process of getting an adventure published and hoping to get a full RPG too and I don’t want to exclude women.

it encourages a male-only environment wherein women are unwelcome or uninterested, and perpetuates the “pathetic loser who RPs because he can’t get a girl” stereotype.

*sigh*

God forbid we make any effort to make games appeal more to women by, you know, including them.

How are us male gamers excluding women?

That would risk male gamers having to interact with the icky opposite sex! Maybe if those guys spent some time with a few girls in their gaming circle, they’d start seeing them as people instead of scary alien beings, learn that they can talk to them just like anyone else, and become socially comfortable or even *gasp!* successful around them.

Sorry but this is highly sexist. You’re claiming that those nerdy geeky losers can become happy and socially comfortable by talking with women?

Man if only I had know that as a teenager! God you’re so insightful into the minds of men. </sarcasm>

I’m all for equality, but not when it’s lorded over me as an excuse to say why I’m so pathetic.

Horrors! We wouldn’t want to destroy that awesome “loser” stereotype or give up our oh-so-charming social awkwardness, now would we?

But hey, if you like things how they are and like being seen and portrayed that way, and think other male gamers like it too, then by all means, carry on as you are.

Maybe the reason women aren’t more interested in RPGs is because the authors have gone to such extensive lengths to exclude them.

How so? It’d be great if you could point out some examples. Most *systems* at least are gender-neutral, in that female and male characters have equal stats. You could play a female D&D elf with the same abilities as a male D&D elf.

There are also a number of games available aimed specifically at women.

As a result, the games and the hobby in general largely attracts only its target audience–men.

This doesn’t logically follow. Women play and watch football thought they even though it’s “target audience” is men. I agree there is a lot of “stigma” around gaming, but I’m not sure it’s because games have attempted to exclude women that’s the cause of it. I think, tbh, it’s the spotty teenager and geeky fandom that’s the cause more than anything else.

And then the next thing you know, stereotypes are forged about “geeks” and “losers” crouching in dank basements where no female has ever trod. Ever heard the phrase “self-fulfilling prophecy”?

I’m sorry as a man, I take offence at this. I’ve been gaming since a teenager. I am now married with kids. Why am I loser? I think the stereotypes you refer to came about, not from the explicit exclusion of women, but the trials and tribulations of adolescence. We nerds and geeks were shunned by the majority of female population. It’s just the way it was (and probably still is). I think *this* is the reason why you don’t find females crouching with the “losers” in dank basements. I think if those “losers” could get women into gaming, they would jump on it like a new Nintendo gaming console.

I’ve played in many groups that had women. Unfortunately it is very much male dominated hobby, but I would love to see more women in gaming.

Excluding women from games is foolish.

Yes it is. But I’m not convinced that game writers are at fault! Personally, as man, I do like games that cater for strong male *and* female characters. (I even play the occasionally female character.) And to be honest, I’ve yet to see a game that implicitly or otherwise excludes women characters or players. I’d, genuinely, love to hear some examples, because I’m in the process of getting an adventure published and hoping to get a full RPG too and I don’t want to exclude women.

it encourages a male-only environment wherein women are unwelcome or uninterested, and perpetuates the “pathetic loser who RPs because he can’t get a girl” stereotype.

*sigh*

God forbid we make any effort to make games appeal more to women by, you know, including them.

How are us male gamers excluding women?

That would risk male gamers having to interact with the icky opposite sex! Maybe if those guys spent some time with a few girls in their gaming circle, they’d start seeing them as people instead of scary alien beings, learn that they can talk to them just like anyone else, and become socially comfortable or even *gasp!* successful around them.

Sorry but this is highly sexist. You’re claiming that those nerdy geeky losers can become happy and socially comfortable by talking with women?

Man if only I had know that as a teenager! God you’re so insightful into the minds of men. </sarcasm>

I’m all for equality, but not when it’s lorded over me as an excuse to say why I’m so pathetic.

Horrors! We wouldn’t want to destroy that awesome “loser” stereotype or give up our oh-so-charming social awkwardness, now would we?

But hey, if you like things how they are and like being seen and portrayed that way, and think other male gamers like it too, then by all means, carry on as you are.

Sure.

I think it’s wrong to assume that there is anything more to the “pathetic loser who RPs because he can’t get a girl” stereotype than simply hormone poisoning. Women may be able to reason during puberty but men are simple creatures and unable to hand the intricacies of social context as well as putting up with things getting hairy. I’m not actually being sarcastic here, I was a loner in my teens because of shyness and awkwardness (and not liking smoking and drinking made me a square too). Men are an easy sell due to their simplicity (and I mean this in terms of “primitive” as opposed to “elegance”.

I’m seeing divided opinions here. Some women want to see an equal number of gender pronouns. Some want less cheese-art. Some don’t care and just want good plots.

As I said in this discussion, the next game we make will strive for equality of genders. I’d just be interested in opinions on whether it makes a difference in the long run.

I’m sure this had nothing whatsoever to do with VtM’s decision to use “she” as the default gender pronoun.

Maybe the reason women aren’t more interested in RPGs is because the authors have gone to such extensive lengths to exclude them. As a result, the games and the hobby in general largely attracts only its target audience–men. And then the next thing you know, stereotypes are forged about “geeks” and “losers” crouching in dank basements where no female has ever trod. Ever heard the phrase “self-fulfilling prophecy”?

Excluding women from games is foolish. Not only does it cut your potential customer base in half, it encourages a male-only environment wherein women are unwelcome or uninterested, and perpetuates the “pathetic loser who RPs because he can’t get a girl” stereotype. God forbid we make any effort to make games appeal more to women by, you know, including them. That would risk male gamers having to interact with the icky opposite sex! Maybe if those guys spent some time with a few girls in their gaming circle, they’d start seeing them as people instead of scary alien beings, learn that they can talk to them just like anyone else, and become socially comfortable or even *gasp!* successful around them. Horrors! We wouldn’t want to destroy that awesome “loser” stereotype or give up our oh-so-charming social awkwardness, now would we?
But hey, if you like things how they are and like being seen and portrayed that way, and think other male gamers like it too, then by all means, carry on as you are.